FCRC Boathouse Discussion Page « falsecreekrowingclub.ca

#1 by Jed on 2011/04/12 - 22:11

I will repeat what I had mentioned in my earlier post: This is about the False Creek Rowing Club and its particular location, size and purpose, and not about a private school. Using public property for the benefit of a private entity, let alone one that only accepts and advances men, is unethical, especially because this means excluding some of the general public (and a disproportionate and therefore asymmetrical percentage of women) from accessing valuable and limited resources. Unethical is unethical by any other name, and as this is a public forum, what is out of place is attempting to trivialize the usage of a word that is germane to describing a proposed use of the False Creek Rowing Club.

#2 by Jed on 2010/12/23 - 15:35

Do develop a competitive team. It will ensure that you have a purpose and a way to attract good athletes. I would be wary of anyone categorically stating that high performance rowing is not feasible at False Creek, especially if that someone used it for highly competitive rowing for many years and would see a competitive club as a threat. There are few bodies of water in Vancouver where teams can row uninterrupted for several kilometres each way. With regard to any issues with congestion, competitive athletes usually do their performance pieces at 5 am. At the end of False Creek, where the new facilities will be located, there would barely be any motorboats and sailing boats out at that time. Safety can be taken care of, as it always has been the case at False Creek, by having coach boats out ensuring the safety of the athletes.

A high performance athlete who rowed at False Creek

#3 by Marc on 2010/10/04 - 20:22

If Vancouver College was included in the plans for this they would also provide a solid group of accomplished rowers and alumni who would be very interested in having a facility available year round to them.

#4 by Jed on 2010/12/23 - 16:05

This would appear to be a good idea. The problem with it is that it is highly unethical to use public facilities that are leased at a few dollars per year for the service of private or independent schools that charge significant tuition to students. The Vancouver Park Board has a mandate to provide “physical literacy for all” (http://vancouver.ca/parks/rec/sportstrategy/index.htm), a mandate that is reflected in the policies enacted by the City of Vancouver to lease valuable land on the waterfront to sports organizations for very little money. A private or independent school will use boats and space for certain periods of time, reducing access to seats, coach time and the facilities by the general public. In the case of the Vancouver College, there would also be a compounded issue of reduced accessibility to women because this school is for males only.
- #5 by FYI on 2011/01/12 - 17:02
  
  So if your arguement holds true than this school should not be allowed to use any city administered facilities…re/ ice rinks, pools, etc…despite paying required fees all on account of it being an independant boys school. This institution would bring equipment, coaching and resources to the facility for all to use – NOT take it away.
  - #6 by Jed on 2011/01/17 - 10:51
    
    No, this is not about “allowing” this school to use any city administered facilities. This is specifically about the proposed False Creek Rowing Club, and following the mandates of the Vancouver Parks Board, which are about inclusivity of “gender, age, ability, physical capabilities, economic status, culture, language, and location” of Vancouver citizens (see http://vancouver.ca/parks/rec/sportstrategy/index.htm). Private and/or independent schools that have rowing teams at rowing clubs use valuable space even if they buy their own boats, which indirectly restrict seat availability because they reduce space availability for club boats. If such a team uses the club’s boats, or if they do not buy enough of them, which is often the case, they directly restrict and reduce boat usage and seat availability. In both situations, the public membership loses potential or actual seats. Private teams also use other equipment and resources, such as ergs, weight rooms, coach boats, practice time slots, etc. (and no, they usually do not buy all this equipment, and if they do, they do not buy enough for their own use). There is also the issue of physical space. Even if a private team can buy everything they need, they will use the equipment and the space where it is, which systematically and consistently restricts public access. Allowing a private or independent institution to participate does take away the ability to row and use the facilities from the rest of the participants, and in turn, from the public. Further, enabling an independent or private institution that enrols only males (that in many cases come from privileged backgrounds) for using resources intended for all is not compatible with a mandate of inclusivity of the general public (see the definition in quotes above). Using a rowing club located on highly valuable water front, which is entirely subsidized by the City of Vancouver for facilitating public accessibility, for the advancement of a private or independent school at the expense and practical exclusion of the public is unethical.
    - #7 by FYI on 2011/03/31 - 14:45
      
      “UNETHICAL” – This is a very strong word. Many, many boys only or girls only schools row under a club banner throughout the planet – lots in Austrailia/New Zealand where the single sex schools are more predominant. Look no further than Burnaby Lake. Crofton House School rows as a school under the club….doubt anyone there ever utters the word “unethical”. I don’t think anyone at the City of Burnaby is looking at there LTAD document and pulling these great young ladies off the water on account of them being female. The Enron scandal….yes, this is unethical….athletes using banned substances – yes, this is unethical….boys only school rowing under a club banner far from unethical. As per the reference to the priveledged backgrounds…why is this a comment? Do you actually know what the cost of tuition is at this school…..not in the “priveledged” range of $…many many many parents at this school are working class east enders who want their kids to have an ETHICAL Catholic focused education that is not provided in the public system.
      
      By including this school, you are not excluding anyone. Wonderful you can site a city planning document and make inferences to it. However, your use of the word “unethical” and references to $$ in regards to VC have no place here!

#8 by Marc on 2010/10/04 - 20:19

I believe it would be a great idea to include Vancouver College Rowing in the plans for this boathouse/Rowing Club. Not only would they be able to provide equipment, but also athletes at the school would love a place to row in the summer as well as alumni who compete at the university level who need somewhere close to row in the summer. Interest would be high from Vancouver College along with a good group of competitive rowers.

#9 by creekside on 2010/05/17 - 12:53

The most interior cubic feet you can start with the better. Bare bones will cost the project less: modular racks for the walls / ceiling and rolling racks for the aisle and admin areas can all be added post completion.

The most usable dock configuration has correct pile placement and ample use of shore side.

Sport Capacity Building: Relying on one grande building will not work on false creek,land is too pricey. If someone is willing to go big, then aim high.

There are many high tech boathouses that are multi uses: high perf; rec; etc.

Sorry nothing too profound.
Great work Simon for sticking with all of this.

Cheers.

#10 by Simon on 2010/05/10 - 22:31

Oklahoma City – Chesapeake Boathouse:

http://www.chesapeakeboathouse.org/1109aboutboathouse.html

#11 by Simon on 2010/05/10 - 22:22

From Barbara C.:

Don’t forget drainage within the boat storage areas. Dripping boats need places to shed water.

#12 by Simon on 2010/05/10 - 22:20

From Roberto D:

Hello Simon,

Thank you for your continued effort!
I only have three somehow general design comments to make.
1. If at all possible keep the access to the boathouse at grade. That is, avoid steps… (small ramps welcome)
2. As much as possible avoid obstructions inside the boathouse. Think cathedral, soaring ceilings, three naves…
3. Plan for easy access to a trailer to load and unload boats. Think “loading bay”…

Thank you again.
See you around.
Best,
rbrt

#13 by Dereck Schwandt on 2010/05/10 - 16:40

All of the above comments make sense. The Richmond boathouse has good dimensions and is the best source of information as it is local.

A parking space for a trailer/trailers is a necessity as well.

Once completed it is imperitive to have a “rules of the road” established posibly lead by the City or the VPD. We also need to encourage “open water”. The aqua bus companies continue to increase the number of docks and the size of their fleet. Its understood they are operating businesses but the creek has become a road with no rules.

Important to not try and be everything for everybody.

Vancouver College Rowing has been rowing on the creek for approximately 20 years. We have been struggling with wet launching (no dock-think used needles and “gray water”), and surviving in a parking lot with no walls. Our club has been struggling with this situation since inception. We did not have appropriate funding in place to be included in the move to Richmond. We were also not included in Southeast False Creek Boathouse as it could not accomodate our 3 eights. We have a good fleet of shells, a positive group of people and would love to be included in the boathouse.

We could offer support, equipment and advice for new prospective schools etc. As the lead coach for the program, it would be tremendously disheartening if the door is closed on our program for a third time.

#14 by Simon. on 2010/05/06 - 12:29

From Scott F.:

Hi Simon,

I’ve forwarded your email on to Rachel and a few other rowing friends in the Vancouver area.

My only comments would be what we spoke about in the elevator. Just make sure the bay doors are big enough to fit rigged eights in without having to tilt them… the dock structure must be such that at low or high tide, you can easily maneuver eights out of the boathouse, down the dock.. or up the dock and into the boathouse. Rack space is also key as you will need to be able to store various boats (evening if the primary use of the boathouse will be for dragon boating. Docks big enough for shells to launch and dock at the same time while also leaving space for coach boats. large change rooms with lots of showers. room to erg in and/or stretch or do core work in.

thats it for now.

scott

#15 by Simon. on 2010/05/06 - 09:46

From Tony C.:

Just to get things going I think you should visit the island and see the arrangement we have in Brentwood but also visit Shawnigan, the Gorge and VCRC. A viable club I think has to have a repair bay which would do for dragon boats and shells. You can have a look at ours here which is also set up as a paint shop to re-finish shells. I do not know how far you can go in planning but indoor training, erg rooms, showers and weight training if possible should go in at the earliest stage but space can be re-allocated later after building. Make the bays wide to contain rolling racks and very high because you will never have enough single racks. In Tokyo they have 15/16 feet tall boat bays and a hydraulic device for racking small boats up and down from the ceiling shelves. An outside chain link area is also desirable as all clubs end up with outside racks for even quite new shells.
Just some food for thought. Herb Challier is an architect in Vancouver and helped design Burnaby Lake. He was a member of UBC/VRC in the early days and has an ongoing interest in the sport and design.. I hope this helps and gets the ball rolling
Tony

#16 by Simon. on 2010/05/06 - 09:42

From Robin D:

As the existing commenters have mentioned, it would be great, if the funds are amenable, to have a social gathering point – bar / coffee bar / cake shop / place that does wraps and other light eats both for rowers and for passers-by on an upper deck that could be used for functions both club and private events renting the facility. So you would need a working kitchen space of professional grade as well. Waterfront facility in Vancouver is premium so this would be the attractive USP. This would be on an upper (third) deck, maybe the same level as coaching / admin offices etc, with a viewing balcony overlooking the boat deck but not mixed with the boating level – and would provide a potential source of self-sufficiency funding. Having changing rooms and erg / gym space on the second level above the boat bays and access to the boat bays from this level would be one possible thought. ?Talk to City of Vancouver about publically-accessible and publically-maintained toilet facility at entrance level but without access to the club building for security reasons.?

From the perspective of boating – three or four finger pontoons going outwards occupying around the same acreage as the VRC mast tower and main square dock combined would give you space to boat 6 fours / 8s and many more smaller boats simultaneously – would need to have enough spacing to get boats off the dock, maybe having “in and out” docking circulation (perhaps flexible at beginning and end of outing to maximise throughput). These would need to have dock-width tidal bridges bringing them up to the main deck level. Distance between boathouse doors and the top end of the bridge would need to be a platform at least the length of an 8 + 10 feet or so allowing turning without risk of impact on staircases and other boathouse furniture. Multiple hosepipe points for washing at sensible intervals at the top end of the “in” docks, perhaps in sunken covers with Hoselok type attachments so that you can quickly move a hose head over to a water point, then cover this out of the way and store the hoses when the boats are away. For that matter, maybe even have sockets into the deck surface for removable modular stretcher frames that can just be plugged in or removed as needed.

Boat storage. Rolling trolleys for the bottom level ; two layers of sliding shelves ; one upper fixed shelf and then storage shelves above this.

I’m in two minds about vertical versus horizontal blade storage. Personally I prefer horizontal as it is easier to load up and less prone to energy-intensive or gravity-assisted “blade swinging” moves that can lead to people being hit with things and stuff falling over. Maybe have one half-bay which is dedicated entirely to this on the wall – if the boathouse is 70-80 feet deep, you can get 4 or 5 sets of oar shelves going along the wall with dedicated shelf units for each marked 8-oar / scull pair set.

Nobody thus far has mentioned the essential requirement of adequate space for workshop use, complete with power points, heating, light, and tool storage. Getting access to the “Mast Room” at VRC was essential for me, and was still hampered by the need to share with yachters – but trust me, trying to do work in a shell bay was infinitely harder.

Recycling bins for bottles etc, with easy portage to the public roadway for disposal. If something is difficult to remove, people leave it there.

From the perspective of being able to bring boats easily in and out of the boat bays, build these on the same level or ramped gently from the main roadway outside, again with at least the length of an 8 + wriggle-room in turning space between the boathouse and the roadway and adequate space for the trailer, perhaps with its own fenced compound to prevent theft or vandalism. Put through doors on both ends of the boat bays, that way boats can either be easily taken down to the water, OR easily taken out the other end in a straight line to the trailer for loading and transport.

?Eco car parking and electric car charging points, maybe run off solar energy panels on the FCBC building roof?

O.K, this is all getting a bit blue-sky.

cheers

Robin

#17 by Simon. on 2010/05/06 - 09:38

From Derrick J:

My biggest beefs were always about dock space. Make it large enough to launch two 8s at one time. Including being able to rotate the shells on the deck if needed. Very frustrating to get up so bloody early in the morning and have to wait in a line up to launch. This may be further exasperated with the launching of dragon boats and their 87 paddlers per boat. I also hated docks that had too steep a gangway when water levels were low. It made the movement and launch too precarious. Not sure if that’s a problem in False Creek.

Warm change/shower rooms. I remember coming off the docks in early or late season at Argos and simply freezing.

Derrick

#18 by Simon. on 2010/05/06 - 08:06

From David M.:

Lots of dock space. Lots of room to move large shells. Easy access to singles. Lots of change room space and showers since everybody needs them at the same time. Convenient places for crews to meet without disrupting dock flow. Ditto for coach boat and motor storage. Safe places for bike storage. Lots of room for ergs and weights. Remember that if the weather is bad a bunch of crews want dry land training space all at once. Mostly thought, a boathouse is useless without decent shells and shells are useless without rowers to use it. If there is a choice between building a beautiful facility or equipping it, take the money for equipment.

#19 by Simon on 2010/05/05 - 21:53

From Mike at UBC:

1) Pick a focus, don’t fill the small boathouse with every boat class – do sculling singles only. This is safest for the Creek and gives members / programs the most flexibility.

2) A bar / social area – great aspect of VRC that we sorely wish we could do at our boathouse.

3) Boat bay size – ours are the minimum dimension go smaller and you will regret it.

4) I don’t see high performance rowing working on the Creek – this is why we left, too congested and dangerous once crews are producing faster training speeds. It will be great for rec rowing, junior sculling and competitive masters.

#20 by Leslie Peer on 2010/05/05 - 15:56

Ditto, one of the major components in viability of clubs the world over is the ability to host members and the public at a bar. If there is no social function the ‘boathouse’ becomes a neglected storage type building. If there is a social function the ‘clubhouse’ becomes animated and is maintained as a living facility. The patio, kitchen, and lounge space follow from this requirement, VRC is a classic example of the successful european boathouse, maximizing its potential as a waterfront facility.

the boat storage, locker rooms, and training specific gym have their own functional requirements mentioned already. Boat bays need to be 80′ by 18′ (if no walls, 20′ if walls between bays) and boats cannot be stored more than 4 high. Sliding racks reduce boat damage during racking. a 5th rack is possible but only for stored, not actively used boats. It is possible to store 1 or 2 racks of boats overhead on pulley racks if the head room is 14′.

Load out from the boat bays to the trailer for road trips. room on the foreshore to spin a 70′ boat to put it away stern first.

70′ Floating concrete docks with hardwood rubbing strips, deck height 6″ above water line.

#21 by derek van den brink on 2010/05/05 - 14:42

difficult to answer without knowing the budget or what the ambitions or size of the club will develop into.
A big money earner for my previous club was to hire out a fantastic function / entertainment area. The gym was of a significant standard which allowed them to attract non rowers. Non rowers had to train outside of standard club training times.
Well designed / proportioned boat houses with non slip floors a must. Parking space for a club trailer.

#22 by Christine on 2010/05/05 - 07:14

A couple of things come to mind – making sure the bar / cafe area has access to the water via a patio. if the club wants to rent the space for special events, having patio access is crucial – amazing how many designs forget to include that.

the other thing to think about would be a space for activities like group stretching, yoga, board meetings, etc. often clubs don’t include a multi-purpose space but it allows for additional activities. Like the UBC boathouse has…

#23 by Van S on 2010/05/05 - 06:47

University of Washington has a state of the art facility.
Their training room functions interchangeably as an erg room, weight room and stretching area and makes good use of blank walls by having the capacity to project video onto them.
It is lit largely by natural light and the way the boathouse is situated maximizes the feeling of being out in nature despite the fact that it is located directly beside the football stadium.
The coaches offices are located away from the training area and that creates a nice separation from the traffic in the bays and the day to day functions of the offices.
http://www.huskycrew.com/shellhouse.htm

The transition from the water into the shellhouse is also very fluid- three docks flow into five bays.
Lastly, the floating boat launch storage is exceptional. Each Stillwater coach boat is driven directly into a floating mooring, the bay doors are closed and they are secure.

#24 by admin on 2010/05/05 - 02:01

the most impressive new boathouse i’ve seen recently is CRI in Boston. Wow. However, they admit that the weight room they built was not large enough to serve the membership…

#25 by Simon on 2010/05/05 - 01:57

A bar/cafe, public washrooms, enough ergs for at least 16 at once, showers for a dragon boat full of people, bike racks, 14′ celings (for oars)